Clara/River, y u no exist?
Apr. 27th, 2013 08:41 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
flowsoffireSo, I've been vaguely thinking for a little while that Clara/River flirting (okay… Clara wanting to jump River is what I have in mind…) would be really cool, both in the finale and in fics. I would love it if that was part of Moff's "love triangle, but not what you're thinking!" plan, instead of… a love triangle… which I'd hate.
I've seen it done, and well done, but as a side thing in Eleven/River fics. However, I was convinced there were probably plenty of fun little fics shipping that around the fandom, and I was very entertained by the idea… But when I checked yesterday, I could find nothing of the sort either on FF.net or on AO3 and Teaspoon. I was pretty surprised—not that it isn't a big thing, they haven't even met on screen, but fandom does explore a lot! So I was wondering why nobody much has been writing it. Each of them is flirty, sassy, in each case there's a line to imply that they like girls too… Besides, come on. Eleven's face.
Personally, I'm not going to make it an OTP because Eleven/River is the core of all things and you just don't touch them, but I have more of a thing for Clara/River than Clara/Eleven (I love them, but not that way. Platonic!smitten)… Does anyone have thoughts about this? They should be a thing!
Finishing this by a pimp for![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
dqbunny's lovely fics The lone and level sands stretch far away and The caged bird sings with fearful trill of the things unknown, both of which are AMAZING River/Eleven, angsty and insightful and hopeful and intense, with a delightful Clara in the middle, River/Clara flirting, smitten!Eleven, and, my GOD, Eleven/River/Clara/Jack as the brand new Team TARDIS. Yes. This is the stuff of my dreams. (Also, look at those titles… Enough said, no?)
I've seen it done, and well done, but as a side thing in Eleven/River fics. However, I was convinced there were probably plenty of fun little fics shipping that around the fandom, and I was very entertained by the idea… But when I checked yesterday, I could find nothing of the sort either on FF.net or on AO3 and Teaspoon. I was pretty surprised—not that it isn't a big thing, they haven't even met on screen, but fandom does explore a lot! So I was wondering why nobody much has been writing it. Each of them is flirty, sassy, in each case there's a line to imply that they like girls too… Besides, come on. Eleven's face.
Personally, I'm not going to make it an OTP because Eleven/River is the core of all things and you just don't touch them, but I have more of a thing for Clara/River than Clara/Eleven (I love them, but not that way. Platonic!smitten)… Does anyone have thoughts about this? They should be a thing!
Finishing this by a pimp for
dqbunny's lovely fics The lone and level sands stretch far away and The caged bird sings with fearful trill of the things unknown, both of which are AMAZING River/Eleven, angsty and insightful and hopeful and intense, with a delightful Clara in the middle, River/Clara flirting, smitten!Eleven, and, my GOD, Eleven/River/Clara/Jack as the brand new Team TARDIS. Yes. This is the stuff of my dreams. (Also, look at those titles… Enough said, no?)
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Date: 2013-04-27 07:47 pm (UTC)F.ex. there were quite a few Amy/River shippers back during S5. So a rule of thumb: Don't ship Moffat characters until you know who they are. (Moffat plots are generally resolved through people claiming each other as family.)
Mind you, if they *do* go the 'love-triangle' way, it'll definitely be the River/Clara route.
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Date: 2013-04-27 07:53 pm (UTC)F.ex. there were quite a few Amy/River shippers back during S5. So a rule of thumb: Don't ship Moffat characters until you know who they are. (Moffat plots are generally resolved through people claiming each other as family.)
Lol… Actually, I almost stated as an example "there were Amy/River people in s5—before that became incest, mind!", but didn't even think of the possibility of Clara/River being the very same. That's probably because I quite hope that Clara won't be *another* Pond, but rather related to the Doctor, so I suppose I internalized it ;) But you're right… Should be careful!
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Date: 2013-04-27 07:54 pm (UTC)(Mind you, if she's not related to the Doctor I'll eat my hat!)
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Date: 2013-04-28 08:02 pm (UTC)Me neither… Ah well, we'll see!
(Mind you, if she's not related to the Doctor I'll eat my hat!)
Big grandfather theme… Unless that is the trick or the trap meant to troll us ;)
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Date: 2013-04-28 08:08 pm (UTC)Mostly, I wish I had time to rewatch Jekyll...
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Date: 2013-04-28 08:11 pm (UTC)I'd never heard of Jekyll! My to-watch list wasn't long enough, apparently.
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Date: 2013-04-28 08:15 pm (UTC)Well the Doctor will certainly be happy about that! :D
I'd never heard of Jekyll! My to-watch list wasn't long enough, apparently.
It's a Moffat show that was pretty much as unsuccessful as Sherlock is successful. But it is ALL THE THINGS. If you've ever wondered whether the stuff in Doctor Who is deliberate or not, Jekyll puts your mind to rest. It's ALL metaphors and FAMILY and PEOPLE IN BOXES and Love Is A Psychopath and *waves hands*. ALL THE THINGS!
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Date: 2013-04-28 08:20 pm (UTC)But where will he find people to kiss? Wait, duh, never stopped him before.
It's a Moffat show that was pretty much as unsuccessful as Sherlock is successful. But it is ALL THE THINGS. If you've ever wondered whether the stuff in Doctor Who is deliberate or not, Jekyll puts your mind to rest. It's ALL metaphors and FAMILY and PEOPLE IN BOXES and Love Is A Psychopath and *waves hands*. ALL THE THINGS!
I can feel some excitement! :)
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Date: 2013-04-28 08:45 pm (UTC)I can't decide if I really like this feature or if it just crosses a line into creepy. It might be the latter. And I love the pingback bot, so I'm not sure how this is different.
-------
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Date: 2013-04-28 08:57 pm (UTC)It's REALLY weird. And feels a little like being stalked? I think it can be turned off. ETA: Yes it can. Go here, under pingbacks.
Moffat Story Structuring: A User's Guide.
Heee. That's perfect!
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Date: 2013-04-28 09:07 pm (UTC)I was thinking I need to rewatch Jekyll . . . my love for it knows no bounds.
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Date: 2013-04-29 07:16 pm (UTC)…unless they do the controlling thing, blah blah blah.
Moffat Story Structuring: A User's Guide.
I like the sound of that, as well. It's funny ^_^
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Date: 2013-04-30 01:08 am (UTC)I wonder if I link an entry if that'll send an alert to the writer. Because sometimes I want to say something critical about a post but don't really feel like criticizing the writer, so I'll do it somewhere else rather than responding . . . *ponders*
I like the sound of that, as well. It's funny ^_^
Thank you. I try ; )
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Date: 2013-04-30 07:35 am (UTC)That's probably the right attitude.
I wonder if I link an entry if that'll send an alert to the writer.
Not sure… But you can still link and name the writer to be sure they'll be alerted?
Or maybe I misunderstood you and the entire point is that the person won't get the alert. XD oh brain, why don't you wake up… Anyway, I don't think only a link will do the alerting, that doesn't sound too logical to me but I'm not the most knowledgeable person about LJ there is, so.
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Date: 2013-04-27 09:19 pm (UTC)Or you could prompt it on the kinkmeme? Even though that's slowed down as well idk
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Date: 2013-04-28 04:29 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-04-28 08:56 am (UTC)A/E and A/R/E set after AGMGTW seems to mention River quite often, but, yeah, before that... out of sight. (Haven't read Rose/Eleven in ages, but it seems like something the Doctor might mention eventually.) Everyone can do what they please, of course, but if you're, say, going to have Eleven marry Clara, some River mention would be nice.
At least, uh, the Clara/Eleven ship doesn't need the Doctor to bash River to make Clara look better? *headdesk*
(But you wrote Eleven-gushing-about-River-to-Clara and that makes it all better! Because... he would. :D)
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Date: 2013-04-29 08:10 pm (UTC)TBH, that's been my issue with Amy/Eleven and Amy/Rory/Eleven and Rose/Eleven (except River tends to be painted as a shrew). All of them seem to just ignore River completely.
Yes to all of this… To be fair, it's possible and actually easy to forget River. The companion is always going to be around: there's only so much running off on adventures and further couple time *insert Eleven kissy sounds here* that can be done when they're sleeping. The companion is THE thing going on in the Doctor's life: we hear enough that the Doctor is smitten with Clara, her mystery obsesses him, and so on and so forth. River herself is globally pictured in fics as very aware of the companions' importance in the Doctor's life (logic, with her keeping track of the Doctor's whole history, plus her reaction to Donna). On the contrary, River comes and goes—and when she's not on screen, to be bluntly honest, even the Doctor seems to almost forget about her. I'm still waiting for someone to tell Nefertiti "YES, he does have a queen. Hands off now if you please." If the Doctor himself didn't have the nerve, it was to be the mother-in-law's job. Where is that Amy sass when we need it? (Also I'm never getting over River not coming to kick the Doctor's arse when he got freaking retired. I won't look for other examples, I could spend the night…)
Back to the point… It'll be interesting, when we get the finale, to find out whether Clara had heard of River's existence at all before the moment of their meeting. I honestly think both alternatives are fairly likely. Nothing resists the Doctor's ability to compartmentalize. (And looking past the story itself, strictly from the POV of the showwriter, it's pretty understandable—there are enough River haters as it is…)
Hm, guess that's the path of least resistance? Or because it seems like you'll have to spend half the fic discussing monogamy?
And yes to this! It's her own fault for not being around to defend her own after all—she should know by now that her husband always ends up kissing and getting kissed in the most random fashion! *sarcasm*
(Besides, in the case of Rose/Eleven, the basis is different: basically, "I was there first"… Up to discussion, that one…)
I would have thought it existed at least somewhat independently tho...
Me too… The incest argument seems obvious now, of course. But we all think about it because we've read meta (or some of us DO the thinky wonder *grins up at elisi's and promethia's posts). Of course everybody wonders and does theories, more or less, but I know that personally, I probably wouldn't have come up with that one on my own—simply because I felt that the family storyline had already been used a lot with the Ponds. Of course I see now that Moffat always pulls the related thing, but I'm sure I would have missed it. And I honestly have trouble buying the whole FF + AO3 + Teaspoon audience combined, collectively being like "careful, they might be related!". My faith in fandom awareness doesn't go that far.
maybe they just need to see them on screen together.
So yeah. Probably quite a bit of that too.
Or you could prompt it on the kinkmeme? Even though that's slowed down as well idk
That's a good idea! Thanks! ^_^
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Date: 2013-04-29 08:11 pm (UTC)/yeah. I break wordcount. That's me, people. Deal with it
I was wondering earlier WHY I'd gotten that annoyed at finding no Clara/River… But I think I've figured it out now—came out of the typing a few paragraphs about fandom's reactions ;) I've always been pretty bothered by people taking two canon-straight characters and throwing them together because why the hell not! That's a long debate, but to sum it up, if you're about to change a character's sexuality, fair enough, bisexuality exists—just please, PLEASE acknowledge the huge change with its consequences on the character! One doesn't switch from straight to gay and back again like they might change clothes. But still people just don't seem to care. I like CANON gay ships, and especially since I'm rather DW-new and Harry Potter used to be my main niche… there was little of that. Here I'm very tempted by a ship that's not canon, but for which we have firm hints that both girls have more or less pronounced bi tendancies. AND to top things off, I can't really write it myself, because my character-continuity compass screeches "RIVER WOULDN'T NOT WITH A COMPANION NEVER" everytime I approach the idea with a very long stick. (*headdesk at the self-inflicted innuendo*) I look it up, and find nothing—subconsciously, I probably thought "is the universe against me???"
Here. I'm sure you girls are terribly fascinated to find out why I threw a little inner fit over no Clara/River… And now I'm nowhere close to done replying to everyone's comments and I'm vaguely starting to remember I was planning to start typing tonight one of the five fics that are sitting mournfully on my notebook (one of which involves Clara/River heavy flirtiness because if it's as far as I can go, I'll sure as hell do it and I OFFICIALLY DON'T CARE IF IT TURNS AU/INCEST LATER! JUST YOU LOOK AT THAT REBEL). Hopefully the others won't think I'm too being dreadfully rude! And hopefully no one will think I'm sounding a little bit too damn HYPER. Oops. Okay. Better send post before I attempt to reread this and some serious headdesking begins.
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Date: 2013-05-18 03:01 pm (UTC)Back to the point… It'll be interesting, when we get the finale, to find out whether Clara had heard of River's existence at all before the moment of their meeting. I honestly think both alternatives are fairly likely. Nothing resists the Doctor's ability to compartmentalize. (And looking past the story itself, strictly from the POV of the showwriter, it's pretty understandable—there are enough River haters as it is…)
Oooh, did you see the clip? I thought about what you wrote here and laughed. (Ugh, yes, indeed.)
And I honestly have trouble buying the whole FF + AO3 + Teaspoon audience combined, collectively being like "careful, they might be related!". My faith in fandom awareness doesn't go that far.
Heh, you’re right, that’s not really v. likely.
Here I'm very tempted by a ship that's not canon, but for which we have firm hints that both girls have more or less pronounced bi tendancies.
... it’s odd that there’s not more fic.
I OFFICIALLY DON'T CARE IF IT TURNS AU/INCEST LATER! JUST YOU LOOK AT THAT REBEL
Live in the moment!
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Date: 2013-05-19 08:04 pm (UTC)*thumbs up* ;)
Oooh, did you see the clip? I thought about what you wrote here and laughed. (Ugh, yes, indeed.)
Victoriously kept away from all clips but I watched the episode by now… ROFL, that scene! I LOVED the way River kept a smile and a straight face when Clara confessed she hadn't even known she was a woman… And Strax… And Vastra/Jenny swiftly changing the subject. ♥ /dying
... it’s odd that there’s not more fic.
Lots of readers were like "MORE PEOPLE NEED TO SHIP THIS" and I was like "*punches air* where the hell have you been all this time?"
Live in the moment!
Carpe diem! ^_^ (And nooo incest! Wut, why isn't anyone related?)
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Date: 2013-05-19 09:40 pm (UTC)Lots of readers were like "MORE PEOPLE NEED TO SHIP THIS" and I was like "*punches air* where the hell have you been all this time?"
Score!
(And nooo incest! Wut, why isn't anyone related?)
I was waiting for it during the whole Gallifrey part, but, nope! Although, if Clara's that entwined with the Doctor, maybe it counts as related? O_o
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Date: 2013-05-22 03:55 pm (UTC)It was :D "Disgracefully." Yes. Always and in everything. Be disgraceful with such flawless grace ♥
Score!
YES! HA!
I was waiting for it during the whole Gallifrey part, but, nope! Although, if Clara's that entwined with the Doctor, maybe it counts as related? O_o
Maybe… eh, I won't complain. It kinda bugs me a little when Moffat is always playing the same themes. Can be very interesting, but can also feel… overdone. Too much déjà vu. The balance is tough to strike.
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Date: 2013-04-27 11:04 pm (UTC)I'm simply afraid of Clara. I would love to see her frolicking with River, but... I'm treading on thin ice whenever I attempt to write her, because quite frankly I fear it will be jettisoned by the finale. As a consequence I don't write her at all. But I would love to read her with River.
I could even have a go at it once I finished the fic spurred by last week episode, and the one tickled by boxes, and the one woken up by the TARDIS this week...
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Date: 2013-04-30 08:11 pm (UTC)Aw. Totally getting that though. I felt the same, but I'm starting to get more used to her… Been doing two little fics about her already… (One of which involves River!flirting, because what the hell ^_^)
I could even have a go at it once I finished the fic spurred by last week episode, and the one tickled by boxes, and the one woken up by the TARDIS this week...
…you do know I'm basically jumping on the edge of my chair (well, if I wasn't sitting on a bed… oh, whatever) right now, don't you? Don't you?
Well, now you know it.
*wild Eleven-y flailing moves- absolutely no pressure, obviously, writer-to-writer respect, take your time, etc. BUT BRING IT. No, wait, that wasn't what I meant… But it so was ;)
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Date: 2013-04-30 09:53 pm (UTC)Hmmm, I'll have to warn you one of the fics involves me trying to be funny. You might not be so eager to read that.
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Date: 2013-05-03 08:02 pm (UTC)I'm sure I will. Shut up with the insecurity already ;) There's hints of humor in mine too. Well. Attempts! ;)
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Date: 2013-04-28 04:28 am (UTC)I was a bit wary of putting Clara in the fics because I'm pretty damn sure the finale's going to send that so far into AU territory that it won't be visible any longer. But, I do like writing the three of them together (and Jack as well, even Amy and Rory as you saw), and I don't see the dynamic as being antagonistic. River knows how important the companions are to the Doctor, and I think Clara will be in awe of River and wonder why the Doctor never talked about her. I think once the finale airs and you see how River and Clara relate (literally and figuratively) to each other, then there'll be more Clara/River.
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Date: 2013-04-30 08:17 pm (UTC)You're so welcome.
I was a bit wary of putting Clara in the fics because I'm pretty damn sure the finale's going to send that so far into AU territory that it won't be visible any longer.
You're probably right—you all are. Oh well, who says AU's aren't good too! ;) (Admittedly a bit frustrating… And like you said, it gives the fic a very short-term existence. Ah well.)
I don't see the dynamic as being antagonistic. River knows how important the companions are to the Doctor, and I think Clara will be in awe of River and wonder why the Doctor never talked about her.
*nods along*
I think once the finale airs and you see how River and Clara relate (literally and figuratively) to each other, then there'll be more Clara/River.
Here's to hoping :D
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Date: 2013-04-28 04:57 pm (UTC)More generally, though, anybody else just not able to ship things they've never seen on screen? I just can't see my way to doing that, even things I might want to ship. But I am basically cannon's bitch.
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Date: 2013-04-30 08:22 pm (UTC)I'm like that sometimes, too… Used to be like that, mostly—been exploring a bit more lately. But for a show, it does sound logical. Seeing the chemistry, the way the characters interact is so very important…
even things I might want to ship.
Were you thinking of one example in particular? *curious*
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Date: 2013-05-01 01:16 am (UTC)Seeing the chemistry, the way the characters interact is so very important…
Yeah, see, without that kind of feedback and confirmation, it's just a non-starter for me.
Were you thinking of one example in particular? *curious*
No, nothing in particular. I might watch things and think "hmmm, I wonder how X and Y would be together?" but if I'm never going to see it, I'm just going to forget about it.
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Date: 2013-05-03 08:22 pm (UTC)I like the image excessively… Would you call that an image? The emphasized meaning in the wording, let's say.
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Date: 2013-04-30 10:05 pm (UTC)You're not alone! I'm exactly like that. I don't ship unless the writers put it on screen, clearly. Maybe it is a way to respect the writer's work or to reject the gnawing need for romantic relationship apparently required in every fangirl...
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Date: 2013-05-01 01:29 am (UTC)It's definitely not confined to shipping for me. I don't have a lot of interest in rewriting canon in general or in pushing the boundaries of canon too far out of line. I just . . . feel like boundaries keep things meaningful? For me it's pretty much always a choice between "I'm happy enough within canon" and "I'm not watching the show anymore."
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Date: 2013-05-04 12:13 am (UTC)Not only do boundaries keep things meaningful but they keep them a creation. When giving it to the audience to watch or to read, the author agrees they are going to make the story and the characters theirs. Yet if you push too far, you just rewrite and it is not his work -it is an hommage, a spin-off, a fanfic, not the original show or book. It is your creation.